Comments on: Heart rate variability: is the debate between Noakes and Ekblom about the wrong question? http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/ Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:53:23 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: canute1 http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-526 canute1 Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:27:35 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-526 Ewen, The question of whether your demanding training schedule caused you putative ‘central governor’ to limit your heart rate during the race a few weeks ago is intriguing. On balance I consider it is likely that this was the case. A year or so ago I made a misguided attempt to estimate my maximum heart rate by running two peak-effort 1km runs separated by a brief rest, expecting I would reach max HR during the second run. In fact, despite a subjective peak effort, when I glanced at my HRM halfway through the second 1Km I realized that my heart rate was already falling, despite not even reaching the peak value achieved on the first run. Disappointed with my poor showing, I decided to make a really determined attempt at the same 2x1Km session the next day, but couldn’t even achieve the peak HR I had reached in the first 1Km the previous day. This might be described as a ‘psychological’ block, but I do not think it should be dismissed as ‘merely psychological,’ as if I could have simply tried a bit harder. I think that there are times that our non-conscious mind acts to preserve us from our own over-enthusiasm. I continue to think that HRV is likely to be a useful indicator of when we are over-doing things. I will post some further evidence on that, though I probably wont be able to fit all these thoughts into my next blog. Ewen, The question of whether your demanding training schedule caused you putative ‘central governor’ to limit your heart rate during the race a few weeks ago is intriguing. On balance I consider it is likely that this was the case.

A year or so ago I made a misguided attempt to estimate my maximum heart rate by running two peak-effort 1km runs separated by a brief rest, expecting I would reach max HR during the second run. In fact, despite a subjective peak effort, when I glanced at my HRM halfway through the second 1Km I realized that my heart rate was already falling, despite not even reaching the peak value achieved on the first run. Disappointed with my poor showing, I decided to make a really determined attempt at the same 2×1Km session the next day, but couldn’t even achieve the peak HR I had reached in the first 1Km the previous day. This might be described as a ‘psychological’ block, but I do not think it should be dismissed as ‘merely psychological,’ as if I could have simply tried a bit harder. I think that there are times that our non-conscious mind acts to preserve us from our own over-enthusiasm. I continue to think that HRV is likely to be a useful indicator of when we are over-doing things. I will post some further evidence on that, though I probably wont be able to fit all these thoughts into my next blog.

]]> By: Ewen http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-523 Ewen Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:56:20 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-523 Canute, interestingly, after my 4 days off running this past week, I ran a short race (2.5k) on Sunday afternoon and was able to average a HR of 158 (compared to the 150 of recent races). I'm unsure of what that means. Did the fresh legs enable me to push the HR higher, or did the heart just work harder of its own accord because I've lost some aerobic condition? Canute, interestingly, after my 4 days off running this past week, I ran a short race (2.5k) on Sunday afternoon and was able to average a HR of 158 (compared to the 150 of recent races).

I’m unsure of what that means. Did the fresh legs enable me to push the HR higher, or did the heart just work harder of its own accord because I’ve lost some aerobic condition?

]]> By: canute1 http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-521 canute1 Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:11:32 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-521 Helen, thanks for your comment. Fortunately, heart attack during races is so rare that it is not easy to draw conclusions about who is at appreciable risk (apart from those with pre-existing heart disease). As I will discuss in more detail in a future post, training can increase HRV, so very high mileage might be fine if it is based on a good foundation. However, in the future post I will say why I think there might be appreciable risk for a marathon runner who commences a marathon while in an over-trained state, and without an adequate taper. Helen, thanks for your comment. Fortunately, heart attack during races is so rare that it is not easy to draw conclusions about who is at appreciable risk (apart from those with pre-existing heart disease). As I will discuss in more detail in a future post, training can increase HRV, so very high mileage might be fine if it is based on a good foundation. However, in the future post I will say why I think there might be appreciable risk for a marathon runner who commences a marathon while in an over-trained state, and without an adequate taper.

]]> By: Helen http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-519 Helen Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:59:58 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-519 Canute, this is all new knowledge to me..but again, you explain it so well. Does the training mileage correlate with risk of (race related) heart attack? Is it the v high mileage runners that are most at risk? If it's to do with hard training and reduced HRV, wouldn't you expect that? Thanks. Canute, this is all new knowledge to me..but again, you explain it so well. Does the training mileage correlate with risk of (race related) heart attack? Is it the v high mileage runners that are most at risk? If it’s to do with hard training and reduced HRV, wouldn’t you expect that?
Thanks.

]]> By: Ewen http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-518 Ewen Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:45:30 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-518 Thanks Canute. I'll be most interested in what you come up with about Hosaka's training. I doubt I'm capable of copying his actual volume/intensity. I'm interested in following that model of training for a while (same daily session/s), at least for 4 or 5 days of the week. Maybe I'll try his 'moderate-paced' progressive 1k repeats at some stage. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that his training didn't always consistently have such volume due to business. I've hit a bit of a problem with a sore shin, so my taper for Gold Coast will be rather extended! Thanks Canute. I’ll be most interested in what you come up with about Hosaka’s training. I doubt I’m capable of copying his actual volume/intensity. I’m interested in following that model of training for a while (same daily session/s), at least for 4 or 5 days of the week. Maybe I’ll try his ‘moderate-paced’ progressive 1k repeats at some stage.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that his training didn’t always consistently have such volume due to business.

I’ve hit a bit of a problem with a sore shin, so my taper for Gold Coast will be rather extended!

]]> By: canute1 http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-516 canute1 Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:58:55 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-516 Ewen, Thanks for that response. I am pleased to hear that you ‘still have some HRV’ and my current hypothesis is far too speculative to justify rushing out to buy a Suunto HRM. With regard to your proposal to include more variety in your training after Gold Coast HM, I think that is probably the safest course of action, but the fact that Hosaka does the same demanding sessions every day has led me to a lot of thinking but not yet led me to many conclusions. My overall understanding is that Hosaka built up his marathon fitness over decades. His current training volume is amazing for a man of his age, but maybe not for a man with his recent marathon performance, and I would be very cautious about copying him. I would love to have HRV data from Hosaka. After I have thought about it a bit more I will probably do a post on Hosaka. Meanwhile, I think you are likely to have a fairly robust heart after years of aerobic training, so provided you keep an eye on your overall physical and mental state (eg increasing resting HR, lethargy, low mood or motivation, are all pointers towards overtraining) I suspect you current training is not too risky. However, if I were you I would taper before the Gold Coast HM so that you are fit to give it your best effort. Ewen, Thanks for that response. I am pleased to hear that you ‘still have some HRV’ and my current hypothesis is far too speculative to justify rushing out to buy a Suunto HRM.
With regard to your proposal to include more variety in your training after Gold Coast HM, I think that is probably the safest course of action, but the fact that Hosaka does the same demanding sessions every day has led me to a lot of thinking but not yet led me to many conclusions. My overall understanding is that Hosaka built up his marathon fitness over decades. His current training volume is amazing for a man of his age, but maybe not for a man with his recent marathon performance, and I would be very cautious about copying him. I would love to have HRV data from Hosaka. After I have thought about it a bit more I will probably do a post on Hosaka.

Meanwhile, I think you are likely to have a fairly robust heart after years of aerobic training, so provided you keep an eye on your overall physical and mental state (eg increasing resting HR, lethargy, low mood or motivation, are all pointers towards overtraining) I suspect you current training is not too risky. However, if I were you I would taper before the Gold Coast HM so that you are fit to give it your best effort.

]]> By: Ewen http://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/heart-rate-variability-is-the-debate-between-noakes-and-ekblom-about-the-wrong-question/#comment-515 Ewen Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:06:38 +0000 http://canute1.wordpress.com/?p=592#comment-515 Canute, I don't know that my current situation can assist with your hypothesis. What you propose does make sense. Unfortunately, my HRM doesn't measure HRV values - it just measure's average and maximum for the distance, or for splits if I ask for them. I have 'some' HRV at rest, as I've noticed when wearing the HRM whilst driving, my HR might be 70 and then with relaxation I can get it down to 64 or 65. In recent training runs over my 7k undulating course, I've noticed the HR hasn't been dropping as much on the downhills as it did 6 weeks or so ago. In the couple of 'tired' races, my HR has stayed pretty much on 150 (after the first km or so). It only rose to 157 on the uphill finish (which I was pushing hard). During the track season, I could pretty much average 155-7 in 3k races, and be in the low-mid 160s at the finish. I think my max is around 167. There was more variation in my training during the track season, but overall it wasn't as demanding as it is now. 120k a week is pretty demanding for me, especially as I haven't increased the sleep! I'm thinking of varying this 'base' plan after Gold Coast to allow more variety and recovery. I'm thinking of maybe 7-9 days of 'base', then 6-7 days of higher intensity, then 3-4 days of 'light intensity' (sprints etc). Not sure if that will help the HRV. Your thoughts? Canute, I don’t know that my current situation can assist with your hypothesis. What you propose does make sense.

Unfortunately, my HRM doesn’t measure HRV values – it just measure’s average and maximum for the distance, or for splits if I ask for them.

I have ’some’ HRV at rest, as I’ve noticed when wearing the HRM whilst driving, my HR might be 70 and then with relaxation I can get it down to 64 or 65. In recent training runs over my 7k undulating course, I’ve noticed the HR hasn’t been dropping as much on the downhills as it did 6 weeks or so ago. In the couple of ‘tired’ races, my HR has stayed pretty much on 150 (after the first km or so). It only rose to 157 on the uphill finish (which I was pushing hard). During the track season, I could pretty much average 155-7 in 3k races, and be in the low-mid 160s at the finish. I think my max is around 167.

There was more variation in my training during the track season, but overall it wasn’t as demanding as it is now. 120k a week is pretty demanding for me, especially as I haven’t increased the sleep! I’m thinking of varying this ‘base’ plan after Gold Coast to allow more variety and recovery. I’m thinking of maybe 7-9 days of ‘base’, then 6-7 days of higher intensity, then 3-4 days of ‘light intensity’ (sprints etc). Not sure if that will help the HRV. Your thoughts?

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